The Six Keys to Retiring Happy

The Six Keys to Retiring Happy

The following is a transcript of Episode #49 of the Retire Happy podcast with Roger Gainer.

All episodes of the podcast can be found at Apple PodcastsGoogle Podcast, and Spotify.

Roger: Clients over the years that I’ve had that came in with access to pensions, access to social security, things that produce a regular income that you can’t outlive, and we plan around those things. These folks are just more relaxed. You could enjoy more of the stuff you wanted because it’s very empowering to know that I can spend every penny in my checking account and have that fill up again the first of the month.

Clark: You’re listening to “Retire Happy with Roger Gainer,” President of Gainer Financial and Insurance Services, Inc. Thanks for joining us. I’m your host, Clark Buckner. With so much uncertainty in the world today, it’s more difficult than ever to make decisions that can help you progress toward your financial goals. In this episode, Roger revisits one of our most popular episodes ever, “The Six Not-So-Secret Keys to Retiring Happy.” In this encore episode, we revisit these steps and the wise words once shared to him. “You can’t tell people how to spend their money, raise their children, or cut their hair.” That wise person ended up being his wife, now married for over 30 years. As always there’s a lot to cover. So let’s dive in. And don’t forget to head on over to gainerfinancial.com for more content like this. Enjoy the show. Roger, how are you doing?

Roger: Doing great.

Clark: I am excited.

Roger: Yeah, it’s a great time of the year.

Clark: I’m excited to reconnect about a topic. Now we have been doing this show for several years now. And when we first started, you might remember this, we did not one but two episodes, a part one and a part two. And it was the six not so secret keys to retiring happy. And I was thinking we could revisit these topics and kind of see hey, what’s changed? What’s the same? Have you had any big realizations since four years ago when we had this conversation? How does that sound?

Roger: It sounds great. It’s interesting to go back and, you know, see the things that we recorded or that I wrote, and whether it still applies. You know, I’ve always approached this from…I want people to understand and have the data, information, and strategies, they need to be successful over decades, not just a couple of weeks. So going back and revisiting stuff like this. I’m looking forward to it just to see, you know, some of these things need to be tweaked or you know, how we talked about them back then or are they still even relevant today here, you know, as we’re about to embark on 2022 five years down the road from the first time we visited this topic? So yeah, let’s right jump in here.

Clark: Right, definitely. I mean, the world is a lot different than…I mean, who would have imagined a pandemic? Who would have imagined the uncertainty? We’ve had a lot of conversations around this. And yes, now going into 2022 this is a great thing we’re talking about. So that first step, we’re gonna move quickly through this, but this is a lot. But the first one, I understand you actually start with eating right and keep moving. So real quick, you know, that might surprise some people. But why is that so important?

Roger: Well, I would say that it’s important for a number of reasons. First and foremost, though, you know, I’ve talked to literally hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of people over the years about retirement. And in fact, we have a little thought organizer that we have people go through. You’ve heard us mention it on previous episodes. And it’s to help, you know, understand where somebody is coming from. And a lot of people say, “Hey, I don’t wanna live past 85,” for example. Now, that’s easy to say when you’re in your 50s because 85 seems kind of far away. But I always tell clients, they’ll feel different when they’re 84. And, you know, if they’re done at 84, it’s usually because their health is bad. You know, they don’t have the strength to get up a flight of stairs, or they’re needing a walker, or other things. And so, you know, by eating right and keeping moving, you’re going to be able to enjoy good health longer. It really is that simple.

Clark: A lot of these steps are pretty simple.

Roger: Yeah. And that’s why it’s good to hear them from time-to-time. You know, the thing that’s different now and it’s really not different when I heard you talking about it that things are so different. Things are pretty crazy right now, right, with COVID, and political upheaval, and, you know, government hearings, and all kinds of stuff and inflation, and the Fed this, and Treasury that, and the crazy this, and, you know, people are all up in arms about a million different things. But it made me think, “Gee, the more things change, the more they remain the same too.” And retirement is still the golden years. It’s still the time where you have the most freedom in your life to design what you wanna be doing.

And in fact, that’s one of the steps we’ll talk about in a minute. So, you know, if that’s still the same, it may be more challenging to get from A to B because there’s more distractions. There’s more information coming at us from television, the Internet, the radio, and friends, Facebook. I mean, it’s just, you know, proliferation. But if you eat right and you keep moving, there are study after study that shows you will not fall as much, right, if you have core strength. One of the biggest problems for retired folks is falling. You break a hip, your health goes downhill pretty quickly in many, many, many cases. If I can get around, I can travel more, I can be more engaged with folks. If I’m eating right, I’m not gonna have as many clogged arteries, I’m not gonna have as much high blood pressure, my diabetes may never occur. Or if you have diabetes, I’ve heard it said that diabetes is one of the only kind of optional diseases that we have. And if you catch it early enough, you can control it frequently with just diet and exercise.

So that’s what I’m talking about when I say eat right and keep moving. Because at the end of the day, good health is at the core of being happy in retirement, not just an endless trek to the doctor.

Clark: Yeah, nobody wants that. That’s not part of retiring happy.

Roger: No, nobody wants it, but, you know, and it’s pretty straightforward in how to avoid it, right? It’s our habits. And there’s not a lot of 90 year old, two-pack-a-day smokers for example, right?

Clark: Right. Well, that’s kind of part of the whole concept of trying to live life on your own terms and let it proceed, right? By its own design. That’s the step number two. Well, how do you specifically call that one out?

Roger: Right, I call it “Let your life proceed by its own design.” That’s a line from a song from one of my favorite bands from most of my life. And when I watch my clients who are truly retired, they have activities, they have avocations, they have hobbies, they volunteer, they start new businesses, they stay engaged in life. They’re not sitting back, cruising the internet, looking up stuff on Facebook, or watching weird videos on YouTube day in and day out. They’re out there, and they’re part of life. They’re engaged in what’s going around them. They’re pursuing their interests. They’re keeping that mind fresh. I’ve heard people say that, you know, “Mind is just another muscle and you need to exercise it.” You know, it’s a use it or lose it thing with your body, with your mind.

And that’s why, again, back to that thought organizer, if you can figure out what you wanna do with the rest of your life, whatever it is, and it really doesn’t matter what it is as long as you’re engaged in it. Again, your life is gonna be fuller, you’re gonna stay healthier, you’re going to avoid depression, and you’re just gonna be more engaged and happier. We are dedicated to the retire happy concept. And these are the things that lay the groundwork to retire happy before we can even think about the money.

Clark: Right, exactly. We haven’t really talked about money at all yet.

Roger: Money’s isn’t gonna make you happy, no. Money’s not the thing that makes you happy. But money is the thing that allows you to do stuff that makes you happy. It allows you certain freedom, but it can also become a burden. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that and some of our other steps.

Clark: Yeah, let’s keep talking. Let’s talk about the money, that next step. How does that come in?

Roger: Well, and the next step is what does it cost? Okay, I have people come to me and say, “God, I got all this money. Just tell me how much I can live on.” Well, I believe that’s backwards, you know. “Oh, what’s the most income I can generate from something?” “Well, how comfortable are you with running out of money?” “I don’t know.” But if you know, “I wanna take these kinds of trips. I wanna get this degree. I wanna help my grandchildren do X, Y, or Z,” we can cost this stuff out and we can plan accordingly in how your assets are invested in order to provide you with that life. And we have a process that we help clients by starting, by figuring out, “Well, what does my life actually cost right now?” And I mean, specifically, because our system is set up to help you spend money without you even being aware of it.

And I’ve always said that, you know, you work so hard for that money, you should get psychic enjoyment out of spending it. So we don’t want it to be leaking out of your financial plan unnecessarily. We wanna optimize what you’ve got available to you. But, you know, knowing what you want your life to look like and how you wanna participate in that…I mean, lots of my clients want to travel, for example. Some only go to five star hotels and get into first class and they jet all over the world. Others, you know, look at how many points they’ve got on their credit card that they can use for airfare, look up what place is available that they’ve kind of interested in seeing, and they book at the last minute, and they figure it out when they get there.

Obviously, one’s gonna spend a whole lot more money traveling than the other one, but they’re both gonna have a great time. So knowing what it’s gonna cost, then let us make good financial decisions that will provide that lifestyle. What do you think of it?

Clark: Yeah, you got to know what this stuff costs. And I’ve also heard you share an example before about the nest egg, where you’re so used to saving money, but 40, 50 years, save, save, save, and then all of a sudden you retire, everything that you know has been shifted.

Roger: That’s exactly right. The transition to retirement is the penultimate financial transition of your life. The ultimate transition of your financial life is when you die and whatever you have moves on to other folks. But this penultimate change, we undergo many, many financial changes in our lifetime where you need things that you didn’t need before. You know, when we’re kids, you didn’t necessarily need a checking account. But when you went out and got a job and they handed you a paycheck, you had to have a banking relationship. You know, it’s those kinds of changes. You get married, you have kids, you go away to college, whatever it happens to be, each one of these life shifts, if you will, require a different approach. But it’s usually just a tweak until we get to retirement.

And when we get to retirement, we start worrying about different things. Mostly we’re running out of money, you know, so that’s why you need to know what it costs, because otherwise, you’re never sure, “Am I gonna run out of money?” I read an article recently in “Barron’s,” very interesting. Retirees aren’t spending enough of their nest eggs. Here’s why.

Clark: Are you surprised by that?

Roger: No, no, I’ve seen this a million times. People are afraid they’re gonna run out of money. They’re afraid that they’re gonna get sick. They’re afraid that there’s gonna be a giant market correction, because we’ve seen all these things happen. And we’ve seen all of these things destroy somebody financially.

I had some younger clients younger, in their mid-50s. One of them was in their mid-50s, and the other spouse was in their 40s. And we were sitting around and talking and they wanted to talk about rate of return on their portfolio. And I said, “This part of your portfolio is not set up for a rate of return. It’s set up to optimize the basis of your retirement and provide a regular paycheck for you. Guaranteed lifetime income.” So the clients over the years that I’ve had that came in with access to pensions, access to social security, things that produce a regular income that you can’t outlive, and we plan around those things, these folks are just more relaxed. They’re not worrying the same way about running out of money. And then we set up…we identify what are the question marks that can knock you off your track, and then we create contingencies for those things.

This recent study that was in “Barron’s” was impressive because it actually talked about a study that quantified this. So here, “They found retirees who get most of their income…” I’m just quoting here, “from pensions and annuities spend more freely in retirement than those who rely on income from an investment portfolio. JP Morgan looked at both types of clients and equalized their retirement wealth by creating a net present value for social security, pensions and annuities. It found that among clients with $1 to $3 million in net worth, those that received 60% to 80% of their income in regular monthly payments, spent 26% more in retirement than those who only got 20% to 40% of their income from regular payments. And if you had $3 to $5 million with more regular income, you spent 47% more.

That means that you could relax. You could enjoy more of the stuff you wanted, because it’s very empowering to know that I can spend every penny in my checking account and have that fill up again the first of the month.

Clark: It seems almost like, you know, the visual I have in my mind is you’ve got this wood pile or, you know, you’ve got your coal or some kind of finite energy resource, and you’re kind of taking some wood and putting it on the fire. And that can be scary because you only get so much firewood, it feels like, but that makes a lot of sense what you’re describing. Not only the income, having that steady income is gonna bring peace, but also, that might even be a good transition to this next point about not only knowing what it’s gonna cost, but knowing where you’re gonna live.

Roger: Well, yeah, this is a conversation we have with new planning clients. Where do you wanna live first and foremost? Almost everybody says, “Well, I wanna keep living where I’m living right now.” And then we go into the conversation. “Well, can you stay there?” I just talked to a client last week who said…he was a new referral. And we were talking, he said, “Boy, I’d like to sell my house. I’ve lived there for 40 years. It’s appreciated dramatically and I thought I could sell it and not have to pay income taxes on it. And it’s appreciated so much that I just found out I’m gonna have to pay, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of taxes to move.” And I said, “Well, why did you wanna move in the first place?” He goes, “Well, it’s a three-storey house. There’s all these stairs. I’m in my 70s. I can see a day where I won’t be able to go up those stairs. And, you know, I’ve got a fairly large lot and it takes some maintenance to keep the lot okay. You know, I gotta keep drains available and clear and all that kind of stuff. And it’s just becoming too much. And what I’d really like to do is get to a single level house and downsize.”

My wife and I had this conversation. Because I talk to people all the time, I started talking with her. And 17 years ago, we moved off a hillside where you had to walk down a flight…she came in at the living room level and then walked down a flight of stairs to get to our bedrooms. And we realized that it just wasn’t gonna be tenable anymore. Great view, but so what? And our number one criteria was that we would have a house that was all on the same level so that we could age in place, if we chose to.

And that’s really the key, is being able to do the things that you wanna do and kind of anticipating what might change over time. And, you know, our health, like we’ve talked about earlier, you know, sometimes there’s things like arthritis or you fall and now I can’t get up and down stairs, or “Gee, how long am I gonna be able to push that lawnmower, or dig around in the yard I loved, you know, gardening? What if I can’t? Who’s gonna take care of the grounds here?”

Clark: That’s a huge responsibility. I’ve seen that in a family where they love having a huge yard. Where are the grandkids? But someone’s gotta get out and Bush Hog that, and that’s a huge job.

Roger: It certainly is. So, you know here in California, we see a lot of people that are what I would call house rich and income poor. And, you know, creating more of a balanced situation where I have enough income to not be stressed out that I’m gonna lose the house. Downsizing is often a great idea for people like that because the house represents such a huge percentage of their overall asset base. So, you know, it’s not just affordability in there, it’s the reality of living in a place that you can negotiate.

I have a client right now who…one of the spouses…they’ve been clients for 20 years, and one of the spouses health is starting to have some challenges. And they live in a remote part of the state, a lovely mountain town in the foothills on the way up to Lake Tahoe. And, you know, it’s a town of a couple of a thousand people, and it’s everything that they wanted in retirement. They left down here in the more urban-suburban area and went out into a more rural area because that’s what they wanted to do in retirement. But now they’re thinking, “Gee whiz, it’s like 30 miles to the nearest hospital. Most of our doctors, we have to get the car and drive. And we’re thinking we need to be in a setting where we have better access to health care.”

This actually happened in my family. My brother used to live in a very remote location. Let me tell you how remote. It was so remote that UPS wouldn’t take a package to him.

Clark: Oh, no.

Roger: Okay, they said, “Oh, we can’t take that package. We don’t go there.”

Clark: That’s secluded.

Roger: So as he and his wife got older, they realized that they were gonna need better access to health care. And they moved into a town that tens of thousands of residents in several medical facilities and just more services available to help them, you know, age gracefully. So, yeah, where you live makes a big difference. And it’s a lot harder to move in your 80s than it is to move in your 60s or 70s. So just keep that in mind.

Clark: Definitely. Okay, so next step?

Roger: Well, next step is, do I stress out over my investments?

Clark: I feel like that’s everybody, isn’t it? Doesn’t everyone worry or think about that?

Roger: Oh, no. Some people just say, you know, “Hey, I know the market always comes back. I have every confidence in America and our strength and resiliency. And when the market goes down, I know it’ll come back.” And that’s fine. But that’s not the majority of folks. And even if it is how you feel, when we get to retirement, it’s different, because we’re spending our assets. So when the market goes down, what makes it stressful is I have less to live on when it goes back up because I had to sell when it was down. Remember that old buy-low-sell-high thing? Well, you know, if I’m living by cashing in some stocks or investments every month, that means I have to cash stuff in when the price is down and it’s not a good time to do that. In a previous, one of our most recent episodes, we call that reverse dollar cost averaging. Do you remember that Clark?

Clark: Yep, yep, yeah.

Roger: And that helps speed up the rate at which you consume your assets. So if you find that you’re worrying about your investment portfolio, there’s probably a good reason for that. You probably have more risk exposure than you’re really comfortable with. And, to me, I’ve always said, “You should be invested in things you’re comfortable with, not just the things that somebody told you to invest in.” So that’s why we go through it and try to determine people’s comfort zone, and then use tools and strategies that meet that comfort zone, as well as that point in life. Because let’s face it, you know, if you’re 80 and your assets are cut in half, and it’s gonna take six years, like it did last time to recover from, you know, from 2008, boy, you’ll be 86 then. And now you’ll really be stressed out.

I had these folks, I started to say earlier in our conversation, and they were here and they were saying, “Oh,” You know, they were worried about rate of return. I said, “Well, look, here’s your guaranteed lifetime income. And that was the first thing you told me you wanted when you came and we started working together eight years ago. And now we’ve set that up so that now we can work on more growth-type investments.” And I said, “This way, when you transition to retirement, you won’t be so stressed out. Do you know anybody that worries that they’re gonna run out of money?” And they both looked at each other and then they looked at me and said, “Yeah, we know a number of people, and they’re not about to run out of money. They’re worried that they’ll get to a place where they’ll possibly run out of money, so they’re not enjoying their life now. They’re stressed out about losing money through their investments.”

Well, is that worth it? Is that what you worked all those years and saved and invested for was so you could stress out in retirement about losing your nest egg? Okay, I mean, it’s hard enough to protect yourself against scammers and all that other stuff. So, you know, there are a number of ways to insulate and de-risk or lower the risk level and the potential for losses in your financial picture. Again, this is a different time of life. We’re asking a different thing from our assets. It doesn’t matter how rich you are, it matters how much income you have. And that is really the truth. And the sooner you can understand that, and the sooner that you go to build that infrastructure so you have that basis, then you’re not gonna stress out if my portfolio goes down by a third or a half, because that’s my gravy money. That’s my fun party money, you know. That’s that once in a lifetime trip money or the charitable act to buy my grandkid a house or whatever it is.

Clark: Absolutely.

Roger: You know, but we spend so much time building wealth that we don’t really think about generating income from that wealth. And there’s a lot of things…I mentioned the house. You know, around here houses are worth over a million dollars on average, and, in some cases, well over a million, but yet it doesn’t produce any income. So you’re “wealthy,” but, you know, you can be stressed out, “How am I gonna pay the property tax? I need a new roof. Well, how am I gonna pay for that? Because I don’t have enough income to take care of those things.” Does that make sense?

Clark: That does make sense. Now, taxes, that’s also something you gotta be thinking about. Because on that same page, you’re thinking about maybe running out of money? Well, you get taxes, right? Especially if you’re drawing that money out of your investment account, some of those accounts.

Roger: Taxes are one of the costs that can help you run out of money quicker. So…

Clark: Death and taxes, they say, right?

Roger: Well, that’s what they say. And as I said, in a recent blog post, those are the two things they used to say you could count on. And I say, the only thing you can count on now is the death part, because taxes are changing constantly. I mean, it seems like the tax code is different almost every single year.

Clark: We’re always talking about that here. You’re always saying they’re getting in there and messing with the tax code.

Roger: That’s right. You know, we’re hearing a lot about taxes going up. Recently, in the last few years, we heard about taxes going down. We’re looking at deficits. We’re looking at inflation. Right now, we have the lowest tax rates since 1913, which happens to be when the income tax was made permanent. So we made changes back in the ’80s, Ronald Reagan changed a number of things that actually turned retired folks into the most tax vulnerable part of our population. If you’re listening and you’re still saving for that retirement, one of the areas of diversification that many people overlook is tax diversification. Having some money that you can access tax free, having some money that you can access tax deferred, having some money that, you know, you’re gonna pay a capital gains rate instead of an ordinary income rate. And that way, you can strategically spend your money spend your income in the most tax efficient way possible. And if you think about this while you’re accumulating wealth, it becomes much easier.

So when clients send me their kids, this is one of the first things we talk about, you know, “What do you expect to be earning in a few years? Let’s look at the tax position. And, you know, you have time to grow money through compounding, maybe we should set up some tax free options for you so that you can take advantage. And in retirement, then you can move to different parts of the tax code as Congress makes changes in that tax code. Because it’s not how much you have. It’s how much can I spend?” And if I pay in taxes, I can’t spend as much, which also is important when it comes time. A big mistake that I see people making, you know, they get to retirement and they say, “Okay, spend my taxable money first and hang on to the tax-free money, I mean, the tax deferred money.”

So in other words, “Oh, if I’ve got cash in the bank or an account at Fidelity, spend that money down, not the money in my IRA, not the money in my 401k. Let that defer as long as possible.” Well, and then what happens is you get there and you find out, wow, all that deferral meant I was more vulnerable to paying higher taxes. Okay, because I still need a certain amount of income, but I only have one place left to take it from and now through my tax deferred retirement accounts, and now my required minimum distributions are higher, or I have to replace more of my income. You know, if say, I was living on $100,000 a year, in order to get $100,000 here in California, you better be withdrawing about $140,000 from your retirement accounts, if they’re gonna be fully taxed.

So yeah, knowing the tax code, knowing how it works, and some of the different provisions so that you can diversify under the tax code and have that flexibility. That is really, really important in retirement?

Clark: Well, a lot of this is, you know, kind of complicated. I mean, you just mentioned, people are changing the tax code. There’s, just like you were saying, a couple of strategies here. There’s certain accounts you take money out of and some accounts you don’t. So I remember, there is a bonus, a not so secret bonus step, and that is to work with a specialist. And, you know, we often talk about what you provide totally for free to everybody, the thought organizer, and I’d love to hear…even though it’s been several years, we talked about this, I would love to hear in your own words, why you still make this your number one first step forward with anybody who’s considering working with you.

Roger: Well, working with me or any advisor, one, it’ll help you to identify what you want that life to look like. So number one and two were all basically thoughts, feelings. It had nothing to do with money, right? The money is there to serve your vision. So it can be very complex or costly to get from point A to point B without understanding the landmines, the things that can go wrong. I had a call this morning from a somewhat younger client, who wanted to put money into a college savings account. His kids are younger and they’re looking at college. And he said, “Well, what about a 529 plan? I can put all his money in it. And I asked him a few questions and he goes, “Oh, that’s probably not the best option for this.”

And I said, “Well, right.” He said, “I didn’t know all those rules.” That’s the key. You know, we’ve talked about Tic-tac-toe. You know, once you know the rules, you’ll never lose, Monopoly, all of that stuff. And a specialist, a financial adviser who has the skill set you need. So you can go and do the thought organizer, figure out, you know, what are the gaps? Do I know all the strategies for creating reliable, guaranteed lifetime income? Do I understand how to balance risk? In a future episode, we’ll talk about risk and managing risk in retirement. Because, again, that’s different. It’s a different time of life, financially.

And so this is where an advisor having somebody who’s impartial. You want somebody who works as a fiduciary. Fiduciary means that they have to put your interests before their own. I work as a fiduciary. And, you know, it’s what’s right for the client, that’s what we have to focus on. A lot of people say, “Well, I just, you know, it’s not worth spending thousands of dollars to get advice to go through this exercise. You know, I’ve always saved and invested on my own.” We’re not talking about investment, we’re talking about strategy. I like to think of my practices as two different businesses. One is the advice business, where we create the strategies and tactics to, you know, just be as efficient as possible in delivering your lifestyle and figuring out what that lifestyle is gonna be, how much it costs, etc., etc.

And then managing the risks, the things that you might not have thought about that can disrupt your well-planned or well-visualized, retirement, because again, the flexibility starts to go away the older we get. So that’s where somebody like me comes in.

The other business I have is investment management, I have a very large toolbox. You know, most folks are saving and investing through their 401k, maybe they open a Schwab account or a Fidelity account. And their toolbox has stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and maybe some ETFs. You know, but there’s so many more tools and strategies that can be used, again, depending on your situation and how you feel about it. And that’s where an advisor can help you identify those things. And if you’re more comfortable having somebody watching out on a more regular basis, or offering alternative strategies and implementing them, that’s where the other place where an advisor can come in. Because we generally have access to just more and different tools, investment products, tools, strategies, than the average person. Because let’s face it, it’s what I do for a living, right? You wouldn’t come to me to get a root canal, but you sure would go to an endodontist to get that root canal. And you wouldn’t go to the endodontist for investment advice. At least I don’t think you would.

Clark: No, definitely.

Roger: So, does that make sense?

Clark: It all makes sense. And I remember your wise quote. I remember you sharing from the very beginning. I might be paraphrasing a little bit here. But you said, “You can’t tell people how to spend their money, raise their children, or cut their hair.” And I believe that was your wife that told you that, right? You’ve been married now for over 30 years, right?

Roger: That is correct. That is correct. Everybody’s got their own priorities and their own idea of what looks good, you know, or how their kids should be. I’m not gonna get in the way in any of those things. My job is just to allow you the freedom to do those things the way you wanna do.

Clark: All the reason to give you all a call. That’s good. Well, Roger, I have so enjoyed our chat today. But I’ve also enjoyed our chat for the many years we’ve been doing this and I can’t wait to continue the conversation next time. As always, thanks for taking the time today.

Roger: It’s my pleasure, Clark, and I hope our listeners enjoyed it.

Roger L. Gainer, RICP ChFC, California Insurance license number 0754849 is licensed to sell insurance and annuity products in California, Illinois, Arizona, and Nevada. Roger L. Gainer is an investment advisor representative providing advisory services through HFIS Inc. A registered investment advisor. Gainer Financial and Insurance Services, Inc., is not owned or affiliated with HFIS Inc., and operates independently. The contents herein are the opinion of the speaker and should not be considered as tax or legal advice. This podcast should not be considered a solicitation for investing or advisory services. Strategies mentioned are not a recommendation to implement or purchase those products or strategies. You should contact your own advisors as to the appropriateness for your specific situation.