Podcast: How You Can Retire Happy During Uncertain Times

The Second Step to a Happy Retirement

The following is a transcript of Episode #47 of the Retire Happy podcast with Roger Gainer.

All episodes of the podcast can be found at Apple PodcastsGoogle Podcast, and Spotify.

Roger: I’ve had this conversation so many times recently, “Gee, I bought this stock, and it’s gone up dramatically, but I can’t sell it because I’m gonna pay so much in taxes.” You’re tripping over dimes to get the dollars. You’re frozen because, “I don’t wanna pay taxes,” when really, you should be thinking about, “How can I increase my income so I can live my lifestyle?”

Clark: You’re listening to “Retire Happy,” with Roger Gainer, president of Gainer Financial & Insurance Services, Inc. Thanks for joining us. I’m your host, Clark Buckner. With so much uncertainty in the world today, it’s more difficult than ever to make decisions that can help you progress toward your financial goals. So in this episode, Roger’s talking all about how you can retire during uncertain times. And he also shares the five things to keep in mind if you want to succeed with this important goal. There’s a lot to cover. So, let’s dive in. And don’t forget to head on over to gainerfinancial.com for more content like this. Enjoy the show. Roger, how are you doing, man?

Roger: Doing great. Absolutely.

Clark: I’m so excited to be back here chatting with you. And right when we were connecting, you were telling me a story, and I think that actually… I want you to continue…you know, kind of start that over. But basically, it’s this theme of how we as Americans are treating the symptoms, not the actual problem, the actual disease, or whatever. So what were you saying that…why do you care about that? And then we’ll tee up today’s topic on retiring during uncertain times.

Roger: Okay. Well, you know, my background is in design, and the design school I went to was founded by Buckminster Fuller, some of our listeners may know who that is. And it was really based on something called creative problem-solving. And what we were talking about is, in our society, too often, we focus on the symptoms and not the cause. What I was starting to tell you was, years ago, when Oprah was still on TV, my wife used to record her show every day, and sometimes she’d be watching it when I walked into the house after work. And one day, she was doing a story about alternative therapies. And one of the things was she was going to get acupuncture. And Dr. Oz was on the show, talking about these alternative therapies. And while Oprah’s laying there, and they’re sticking needles in all over her body, and she’s looking very nervous about it, Dr. Oz started to talk about alternative therapies, and he said, “You know, really, if you think about it, Western medicine is the alternative therapy. They’ve been doing acupuncture for 3000 years.” They’ve been doing, you know, herbology, and Chinese medicine has been around for thousands and thousands of years. Western medicine’s been around, you know, for 150 years. So, what’s really the alternative therapy?

Clark: Interesting.

Roger: Okay. And, you know, if you talk to some of those practitioners, I know, for some folks, this will sound, you know, very California, but they’re talking about your energy force, and how things flow through, and chakras, and all of that kind of stuff, and where there might be blockages. And that’s really getting to the root cause, as opposed to, you know, “My arm hurts and let me just have a pain killer, and hopefully, it’ll resolve itself instead of figuring out, “Why does my arm hurt?” you know. And I think we were actually…had mentioned that this came about because we were talking about how people feel about money, right?

Clark: Yeah.

Roger: Especially today when things are just so crazy, right? We have volatile markets. People are talking about inflation. People are talking about interest rates going up. With political unrest, we have infighting…just lots and lots of uncertainty. Oil prices are way up. All kinds of things are going on. And, you know, I know from the calls…in fact, a guy, when I came in and opened my email this morning, wanted to know about buying gold because he’s nervous. And, you know, maybe in a future podcast, we can talk about gold. That’s how I started my career in 1984

Clark: I did not know that.

Roger: Yeah. I was a gold and silver trader. I also trade a little bit of copper and platinum, but primarily gold and silver, and, you know, studied all the reasons why gold is considered an inflation hedge, and all of that stuff. And, you know, there’s a lot of misunderstanding about the role of gold, and what gold can and can’t do. But, you know, when I start to get those inquiries, you know, and that deer in the headlights kind of, “I’m worried, oh my goodness, you know, is the dollar gonna fall apart? You know, is the U.S. Treasury gonna default on its debt?” We’re gonna have that conversation again in about a month. And stuff like that, you know, just rightly makes people kind of nervous. And when people are nervous…you know, nobody wants to make a mistake, nobody wants to lose money, and so people freeze. It’s that deer in a headlights thing, right?

Clark: Right.

Roger: You know, uncertainty…nobody wants to make a mistake. We all wanna make good decisions, but, you know, at the end of the day, not making a decision…and I’m gonna say this real slow so everybody gets it, not making a decision is still a decision.

Clark: Wow. Say that again.

Roger: Not making a decision is still a decision. It’s a decision to stay where you are. And you have to ask yourself, “Is where I’m at in my best interests?” Because really, you know, if you don’t act in your best interest, how can you expect anybody else to? You know, I’ve told clients over the years, “It’s gotta be at least as important to you as it is to me.” And I’ve had a…you know, shake hands and part ways with some people because they just wanted me around as an excuse. I know that may seem kind of weird, but, you know, the, “Oh, well, I’ve got a financial planner, so I’m really working on my stuff, but they wouldn’t change anything.”

I remember years ago, getting a referral, and the guy was a president of many multimillion-dollar company with national reach. And he was the CEO and president, and the company was going through some struggles. And one of the first things we do is we look at if somebody’s spending is in line. In fact, that was why they were referred to me by one of their relatives. And I found out after our first meeting, I didn’t find it out right away. So we had several meetings, but, you know, they were all excited, “We’re gonna get in control of our financial picture, and yadda, yadda, yadda.” And I found out later that on their way home from that first meeting, they stopped at Tiffany’s to buy somebody a Christmas present. And as long as they were there, the wife picked up a $10,000 bracelet.

Clark: For the friend?

Roger: No, for herself.

Clark: Oh, great.

Roger: In addition to the friend’s thing. Now, these are people that were borrowing $20,000 a month to maintain their lifestyle and didn’t see anything wrong with that.

Clark: Yeah. I’ve heard a phrase before. Sometimes it’s not as much about how much you make, it’s about how much you spend, something along those lines. Maybe that might be a good transition to this topic, too.

Roger: And, yeah, that’s great because we do wanna talk about how can you retire during these uncertain times. Good or bad, I have the perspective of going through bad times before with clients. And, you know, back in 2008, we’ve had a number of clients retire successfully with all of that craziness going on. In fact, you interviewed one of my clients who retired in 2008 a few years back. Do you remember that?

Clark: I remember that. I can’t remember the name.

Roger: Andy.

Clark: Yeah. Andy, that’s who it was. That’s a great episode. I can’t remember his name, but I remember his story. I think I remember him talking about, like, kicking his feet up on the table, like, we could finally take a break.

Roger: Oh, yeah. Andy and his wife live in their dream home up in the foothills of the Sierra Mountains. They built it. Wealthy, wealthy people in the money sense, and they were very wealthy in the life sense. But they were clear on what they wanted, and because of being very clear on what outcome they were looking for, the decision-making went much easier for them. And, you know, we were able to pull everything off. They’re living the lifestyle they want. They’re taking great trips. They’re enjoying family and friends. They’re doing volunteer work in the community. They’re musical folks. She’s a musical director of a local choir. He plays piano and sings. She sings. They actually do touring. So, you know, they’re getting it…really enjoy what they wanted to enjoy out of their retirement. I mean, at the end of the day, we’re all about retiring happy and having a happy retirement, and really not stressing out to get there. So, you know, in order to be happy and enjoy life, even leading up to retirement, we have to figure out how to avoid that deer in the headlights feeling.

Clark: Deer in the headlights.

Roger: The panic. Right, you know, “Oh my God, all this stuff is going on. I don’t wanna make a mistake. I don’t wanna lose money. Oh, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do?” And it’s being a deer in the headlights and just freezing. And freezing, you know, is still a choice.

Clark: Right. It’s the decision. The decision not to make a decision is still a decision, is what you were saying?

Roger: That’s what I’m…it’s so true.

Clark: On your blog, gainerfinancial.com, you’ve got a post about how to retire during uncertain times, and you have on there five things, five different points to keep in mind if you want to succeed. So I would love to maybe wade through some of these…just some of those ways to maybe try to unfreeze someone or keep them from being paralyzed with their indecision. So what’s that first step?

Roger: Okay. Well, thank you for that because that’s my goal in why I blog, why I do these podcasts is so that people, you know, can remove stress, or at least reduce it. Some people just live, like, love, stress, so they can’t eliminate it from their life completely. But, you know, let’s not have it overwhelm you. And the first thing, like we were just talking about Andy retiring in 2008 and his wife, know your why.

Clark: Know your why.

Roger: Andy and his wife knew their why. They knew what they wanted, so they were saving, investing, accumulating during their working years because they had a very clear idea of what they wanted. They wanted to build their dream home. They wanted it to be in a certain type of community. So they were able to sell their house before the market totally caved in in 2008. They were able to get enough money. You know, they weren’t lamenting that, “Gee, if I’d sold it six months earlier, I might have gotten another $100,000” because they got enough money to do what they wanted.

We figured out an income plan. We figured out a plan for them to pay the architect, and the builders, and create this dream home for themselves and a great lifestyle because they knew their why, and they weren’t looking down, and they weren’t looking two feet in front of them, but they were looking out at the horizon. And remember, we never really get to the horizon, right? The world is round. You don’t get to the edge. So when you look out there, you keep moving forward. You know, the only thing that should stop us from moving forward is dying, right?

Clark: Yeah. And hopefully, you’ve calculated that timeline the best you can.

Roger: Exactly.

Clark: So knowing your why.

Roger: Knowing your why. You know, I’ve had this conversation so many times recently where clients are frozen, “Gee, I bought this stock, and it’s gone up dramatically, but I can’t sell it because I’m gonna pay so much in taxes.” “Oh, you know, I’ve owned Apple. It’s gone up 500%. And if I sell it, I’m gonna have to pay taxes.” But if what they’re trying to do is create retirement income for themselves, Apple pays a very small dividend. You’re not gonna get enough income off of that asset to achieve what you want. You’re tripping over dimes to get the dollars. You’re frozen because, “I don’t wanna pay taxes,” when really, you should be thinking about, “How can I increase my income so I can live my lifestyle?” Okay. So knowing your why will help you to make better judgments that are in your own best interest. And do things that are in alignment with what you’re trying to accomplish.

Clark: So once you find that why, what follows, what’s your next step?

Roger: The next step is knowing your when. Okay.

Clark: It’s like an age of when you’re trying to retire, is that basically what that’s referring to?

Roger: Well, it’s not just, you know, retiring. When do I wanna use this money? It can be buying a house. It can be starting a business. It can be sending your kids to college. You know, knowing what that time horizon is will help you select tools that make sense. Let me give you an example, say you were 60 years old, and you wanted to retire at 65. But you were 60 years old in 2007, and you were fully invested. Well, it took until…from October of 2007, it took until April of 2013, almost six years, to get back to where you were in 2007. Well, if I had retired during that timeframe, I would be forced to sell certain investments at a bad time. And it would shorten the amount of time my money would last. So knowing your when, “What’s my time horizon?” really is very, very helpful in deciding what kind of investments and what kind of strategies you should be participating in. Does that make sense?

Clark: Makes sense. So we got the why, we’ve got the when. What follows this?

Roger: Well, if you wanna retire, it’s not about how much money you have. I’m gonna say this very slowly, it’s not how wealthy you are, it’s how much income do you have. Because there’s only two ways to create income, Clark, you at work or money at work.

Clark: You at work or your money at work, is that right?

Roger: Right. So when we’re in our working years and developing our businesses and our careers, the investing is longer-term, and we don’t need to lean on our investments to pay our bills. But once we transition from that full-time work to part-time work or volunteer work and actually retire, now we want our money to do something entirely different than we ever asked it to do before. We want it to pay our bills. We want it to support our lifestyle. And the only way that works is to create an income plan that works. So having growth stocks is great, but you cannot walk into Safeway and hand them part of that piece of paper and say, “Well, this is a share of Apple, and, you know, it’s worth 140 bucks. And I’m just gonna, you know, buy $140 worth of groceries and hand you this certificate.” They’re gonna look at you like you’re nuts, right?

Clark: Yeah.

Roger: Or, you know, your house is worth $0.5 million, you knock a few bricks off the porch, and you go in and say, “Well, this is, you know, $100 worth of my house.” And that doesn’t work. So, you might be wealthy, but if you don’t have enough income…ask anybody who’s happy in retirement, and you will find somebody with income. And with enough income, with enough certainty that they won’t run out of money, and that their bills are gonna be paid, then you can truly relax.

Clark: Man.

Roger: All right.

Clark: That is retiring happy. That is the objection. Yeah.

Roger: There it is. See, I read a great article about three or four years ago. It’s actually a research paper. And it was about that most investors…individual investors evaluate risk incorrectly for most of their lives. So we’re taught, you know, that risk is volatility. You know, the market coming back, how much volatility? How much does it go down? But this is a risk metric that’s fine when you’re in your 30s, 40s, and maybe even your early 50s. But as we get closer to retirement, that’s not the risk. Okay. You know, the volatility [inaudible 00: 18:52] just by that S&P 500 fund, and, you know, it goes up more and it goes down, well…but you know, we had a year, not that long ago, that it went down by half. Well, that’s not gonna help in retirement, right? But that risk metric is because of pension plans and sovereign funds and hedge funds. These are investment pools that don’t have a maturity date. They have no target date. Their job is to grow the money to meet certain obligations like in a pension fund. All right.

When you’re within, like we just talked about, knowing your when, if I’m 5 years away or 10 years away from retiring, my biggest risk is losing that money at an inopportune time. So now I have to address that risk. And after I retire, the risk isn’t whether stock markets are up or down, whether my real estate is appreciating, it’s will my income be reliable and last my lifetime? Will I run out of money? So, you know, that income plan, if…we’ve talked about this a little bit before, it’s why we spend so much time on Social Security. And if any of our listeners missed those podcasts and blogs…

Clark: It’s a great series there.

Roger: …go check them out because that’s a cornerstone for anybody for your retirement income plan. You know, in my family, in another year, I’ll be claiming Social Security, and that’s gonna be over $60,000 a year that’ll be coming into our household from Social Security. That’s not anything to sneeze at, right?

Clark: Right.

Roger: And I don’t have to worry about the stock market melting down and what’s gonna happen. Am I gonna run out of money? So that’s the income plan component. And I’m an RICP. I hope our listeners know that. That’s a Retirement Income Certified Professional. And in studying for that designation, it’s pretty clear that there’s really only about four ways to create retirement income. And again, we’ve got some blog posts on that up on the website. Now, what can screw up your income plan? Taxes, right?

Clark: That’s right. That brings us to our next point. And you mentioned taxes a moment ago. So when…you know, like, “I don’t wanna take my money out because I’m gonna have to get taxed on it.” Well, you can’t take the Apple physical stock into a store. So, yes, tax is a huge part of this. So we’ve talked about your why, your when, the income plan, and now taxes. How do they fit into the picture?

Roger: Well, you know, let’s just say you’ve saved all of your money in an IRA or a 401(k) at work, and so you’re exposed only to one part of the tax code. You know, there used to be a saying years and years ago, “There’s only two things in the world you can count on, death and taxes.” And I would put it to you, you can only count on one of those because it seems like taxes get changed every year, whether it’s at the state, or the federal level, or the local level. And, you know, elected officials just love talking about taxes, “We’re gonna cut taxes. We’re gonna raise taxes. Let’s tax the wealthy. Let’s tax wealth. Let’s tax imports through tariffs,” you know, tax, tax, tax, it’s going around. And so one of the things that I want my clients to be when we get to retirement is be tax diversified.

We talk about diversifying in your investments. And why do we do that? So you don’t lose money, right? It reduces volatility. Well, taxes, it’s the same thing. If I’m diversified in the tax code, and Congress changes the way a certain type of income is gonna get taxed, I can move to something else, okay? You know, 401(k) is a tax-deferred, and now with the new stretch IRA rules from the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, we used to be able to leave IRAs to the kids. And they could stretch it over their lifetime so that they didn’t get killed in taxes. Well, that’s gone. Today, when you die, if you leave your IRA or 401(k) to your kids, they’re gonna pay a lot of taxes on that money because that account has to be cleared out within 10 years, 10 years, that’s it.

So say you got $2 million in your IRA, and you’ve got a kid who’s working in Silicon Valley making, you know, $300,000 a year, and suddenly, they gotta add another $200,000 or more to that, because you don’t have to take it out in equal installments like you used to. You could say, “Oh, gee, I don’t wanna pay that tax today. So I’ll skip this year, and I’ll skip next year, and I’ll skip the year after.” And pretty soon, you’re at year 10, and now you have to take out $2 million or $3 million and pay tax on all of that.

Clark: A huge chunk. Wow.

Roger: And when you look at, you know, not just direct taxes, like income taxes, but there’s indirect taxes. If you’re retired, an indirect tax is you’ll pay more for your Medicare premiums. Medicare is around $150 for part B, but if you’re over certain thresholds, like we’ve talked about in that podcast recently, you can be paying closer to $500 for your Medicare Part B. So that’s a $350 a month surcharge. That’s a tax as far as I’m concerned. If you’re married, that’s $700, that’s over $10,000 a year in tax. That’s about $10,000 a year in tax. Certain deductible things that you can deduct on your income tax get phased out if your ordinary income is too high.

Clark: Right. Now, I’ve also heard you talk about looping in your account, right, and all this kind of stuff. You work with the team. You’re on the team to really help think through all these things because there can be some surprises along the way.

Roger: And we tend to put a lot of pressure on our tax advisors to save me tax today. And, of course, one of the ways to save tax today…you know, we just had…the final tax deadline was last Friday for those that took extensions. And the tax deadline…you know, a lot of people see their estimated taxes, talk to their tax person, and they say, “Well, what can I do to knock that bill down?” And they go, “Well, you can put money in an IRA.” You can open a SEP IRA, a Simplified Employee Pension Individual Retirement Account, a SEP IRA. Well, yeah, that does save you money on taxes this year, but all it does is postpone that tax to a time when maybe taxes will be higher. Maybe you won’t have as many deductions as you have today.

So, you know, I tend to look at taxes from a 10,000-foot level, and know that there’s taxes that we’re going to have to pay. But if we plan in the long run, you know, there’s ways of accumulating wealth that you’ll never pay tax on, again, under today’s tax code. So being tax diversified is really important. Just a little aside for our listeners, there’s really a hierarchy of money. And when we work with clients, we talk to them about this hierarchy. The best money there is free money, right? If somebody hands you money, that’s pretty cool, right?

Clark: Sure. Is there a catch? It sounds pretty good.

Roger: Well, there’s a catch. A lot of people, their employer hand them free money for investing in their 401(k).

Clark: The match, right, 401(k) match?

Roger: The match. That’s free money, especially if you’re vested in that money. So we like that money. We don’t wanna leave that money on the table unless there’s a catch to it, of course. The second-best kind of money is tax-free money, right, that I can spend without worrying, “If I take money out of this account, if I cash this share of stock in, am I gonna have to pay taxes?” That’s the next best type of money. The third best type of money is capital gains taxed money. Because capital gains taxes under our current tax code, that tax rate is lower than the ordinary income tax for most people. So, taxing things as capital gains, you know, stuff that you’ve held for more than a year and you made a profit on. And then finally, it’s stuff that tax is ordinary income.

I was talking to a client of mine the other day, and he said, “You know, boy, what a great year I’m having. I don’t think I’m gonna be able to retire anytime soon because I’m just making so much money. I’m up 75% from last year’s income.” And he told me how much…you know, I said, “Well, what are you tracking for?” And I looked at the tax brackets. And so he’s gonna be sitting solidly in essentially the 41% tax bracket at the end of the year because he’s got a 37% ordinary income tax. And he’s gonna have a 3.8% surcharge on that, so his marginal rate. And then there’ll be state income tax and some other…this is in that. You know, his tax rate’s gonna be close to 45% on a marginal tax rate basis. So, you know, that’s something to keep in mind. And if you’re in that position, and you got a giant IRA, and now you’re turning 72, and you have to take money out of there, boom, Uncle Sam is right in your pocket, not to mention the state and local governments, right?

Clark: Right.

Roger: Like you mentioned earlier, it’s not how much wealth you have, it’s how much of it can I spend? How much of it can I leave to the next generation if that’s a priority? How much of it can I give to charity? But most of all, how much of it is gonna be available to help me support my lifestyle and enjoy life?

Clark: Right. That might bring us to our final step, right, of our five.

Roger: Oh, the final step of five is avoid losing money.

Clark: So what does that actually mean? I mean, that makes sense. You don’t wanna lose your money. Like I said, what does that mean?

Roger: Right. People are saying right now to themselves, “Well, of course, I don’t wanna lose money”. Nobody ever came to you and said, you know, “Buy this mutual fund because it might lose 20% next year. And I think the market’s gonna go down by 40%.” You’d look at them and say, “You’re crazy. Why would I buy something that is gonna go down 20%,” right? Nobody ever tells you that, they tell you how well things are gonna do. And that’s why you, you know… In Wall Street, they talk about, there’s two things that motivate investors, fear, and greed. And you have to decide which one is their motivating factor and then hit it hard. Okay.

Clark: Man, so manipulative, but I guess that’s just how humans…

Roger: That’s the way it is.

Clark: Humans are easy to mess with. Wow.

Roger: Well, yeah, people behave, you know, I learned a long time ago. I do some technical charting, and the reason charting works is it’s just a graphic representation of human emotion. So that’s why these patterns repeat each other because investors keep making the same mistakes. So, if you don’t learn from your mistakes, right, you’re doomed to repeat them. So avoiding losing money is really critical. A lot of people just don’t have a strategy for doing that. You know, right now we’ve seen incredible appreciation in the stock market. Do you have a plan to lock in your gains because those gains are meaningless unless you harvest them?

Clark: You can on paper have all this money, but unless you actually pulled it away.

Roger: Right. Hey, I’m here in Marin County, California. We’re one of the priciest real estate markets around. And I’ve had clients, you know, come in and say, “Oh, man, I made $100,000 on my house last year. And I’ll make another $100,000 next year.” And I say, “Did you sell your house?” They said, “No.” I said, “Then you didn’t make that money. The value of your property appreciated on paper, but it’s meaningless because, until you sell, you don’t make a dime.” If I bought Apple stock for $5… I have a client who brags all the time, he bought Apple for $5, and it’s split, and it’s everything. Well, but it doesn’t matter. You didn’t make that money until you sell. Now, to his credit, he has sold…he has taken some profits, and he takes them strategically, so good for him.

But, you know, others are not thinking about, “How do I lock in gains? How do I hedge?” You know, don’t let that tax tail wag your financial dog. So we’ve got a lot of folks that are really, you know, feeling pretty good about how much their portfolios, whether it’s stocks, or real estate, or other types of assets, have appreciated. But what’s your plan to make sure you don’t give it back to the market? So we always have to look at the cost versus benefit when it comes to taking profits, you know, “Oh, gee, I don’t wanna pay 20% capital gains tax.” Well, what happens if those shares drop in half? You paid a much bigger tax, didn’t you?

Clark: Right.

Roger: And then you’re gonna sell, and you’re still gonna pay the 20% tax on the other half. So, we actually have a program, that if any of our listeners are interested, that shows how avoiding significant losses…how positive that can be for your wealth. It’s a little spreadsheet that we’ve plugged in the last 21 years of stock market returns on the S&P 500, and we compare that to investing in the S&P 500, only taking some of the upside. And we can go down to about 40% of the upside over the last 21 years, and still, as long as we have zero downside, that’s right, 40% of the upside and zero downside, and you’d come out just about exactly the same. If you got half the upside, you’d come out way ahead. So it’s very, very interesting, you know, over a 20-year period, where even as long as you limit those losses, it’s gonna be positive for your wealth building.

Clark: I love it. Hey, five steps, I know this can seem like a lot. However, a great way to start is, of course, the thought organizer. And the thought organizer is something we like to always mention. And basically, that’s a way to just take an inventory of where are you at right now? How are you feeling? Just high-level details, and then you all always meet them where they’re at. So anything you wanna plug on the thought organizer before we wrap up for today?

Roger: We offer that free to our listeners. You just go to www.gainerfinancial.com or give us a call at the office. We’ll be happy to send you a copy. But you can download that off the homepage on our website. Just scroll down at the bottom, and it says, “Download the thought organizer.” In fact, I’ve had clients…every few years, it’s good to fill that out because, you know, life is dynamic, it’s not stagnant, things change. And it’s nice to check in, you know, with where you’re at, where your partner/spouse is at, and whether you guys are on the path you wanna be. You know, things are definitely getting more crazy, seems like by the day. It’s probably detrimental to all our health to watch the news these days.

Clark: You gotta be balanced on that media diet these days. Wow.

Roger: There you go. So, yeah. We’re gonna drill down in future podcasts on each one of these topics because, by themselves, they’re very important. We just kind of glossed over them today, but we really want you to understand these things. Using that thought organizer is a great way to clear up some of your thinking. And if there’s anything we can do…you know, I hope that this will help you to think about your situation in light of the backdrop of volatility and craziness, and help you to gain the confidence. If you have questions, just give me a call, and send me an email with your thoughts or comments as you think about these issues. I appreciate your time.

Clark: Roger, thank you. Looking forward to our next session.

Roger: Great. Take care, Clark.

Clark: Roger L. Gainer, RICP, ChFC, California insurance license number 0754849, is licensed to sell insurance and annuity products in California, Illinois, Arizona, and Nevada. Roger L. Gainer is an investment advisor representative, providing advisory services through HFIS, Inc., a registered investment advisor. Gainer Financial & Insurance Services, Inc. is not owned by or affiliated with HFIS, Inc., and operates independently.