The following is the transcript from Episode 18 of Retire Happy with Roger Gainer, a financial and business audio podcast.

Roger: People always are afraid of change. It’s human nature. We’d like things to stay the same, but when we have change and risk goes up, something else happens as well. Opportunities appear.

Clark: You’re listening to “Retire Happy,” with Roger Gainer, President of Gainer Financial and Insurance Services, Inc. Thanks for joining us. I’m your host, Clark Buckner. The Federal Reserve recently raised interest rates and if you’re listening, you may be wondering what this means for you. In today’s episode, we’re gonna learn more about what it means to raise interest rates and how it can affect you and your assets. Along the way, we’ll zoom in on three of the main asset classes, bonds, real estate, and stocks, and how this change will affect them individually. For more content like this, be sure to visit Enjoy the show.

Roger, good to connect with you. I’m really looking forward to our topic today, what the raising of rates by the Feds means to you. How are you?

Roger: Hi. I’m just wonderful. Lots of fun things happening over in our neck of the woods.

Clark: As always, right?

Roger: Yeah. Well, it’s a great area to live in. We have our warts like everybody else, it is expensive. My wife likes to call it the paradise with a price, and there’s no doubt about that. But, you know, just enjoying summertime and all that that has to offer and watching these changes that are happening, and now, being implemented in the tax, and the economic changes and, you know, a couple of weeks ago the Fed came out. Raised interest rates for the second time this year and kind of surprised people and said, “We’re gonna do this twice more.” At least that’s what the indication. You never know for sure until it’s done, so we’re focusing on what all these mean for clients, we’re getting phone calls, interesting spectrum of phone calls I might add.

Clark: Interesting. What’s the quick example.

Roger: Well, quick example, I have one client send me an email about our fiat currency and the coming collapse of our economic system, and shouldn’t I be invested in gold? And I don’t wanna get in the weeds on gold today, but I started out this business as a metals trader, I traded gold, silver, platinum, and copper. I was a commodity trader, that’s how I got my start. Someday we’ll stroll down memory lane…

Clark: I like that idea.

Roger: …and I can tell you all the nightmares of the brokerage world and why I have a great deal of skepticism for the many financial institutions and brokerage houses in particular. So, anyways, I just said to them, you know, “What’s the point of buying gold for you? And if it’s a speculation, it makes sense. If you think we’re gonna enter Armageddon because a few interest rates are going up and stuff like that, in fact, interest rates rising is bad for gold and when we talk about gold I can explain why.” But, you know, I just questioned his thinking and I’ve had other people, you know, panic about refinancing their house or, you know, what stocks should I be selling? Those kinds of questions are coming up. And what we wanna make sure is that people anticipate what might be, you know, the next moves so that you’re ready, you’re light on your feet, you’re prepared, and you’re not gonna get run over. These days, money moves so rapidly around the planet, I mean, trillions of dollars move in fractions of seconds. And because of that, if you think you can react as fast as these massive computers can react, I say good luck to you because you’re probably gonna get run over as the money flow goes. It’s like, there’ll be a flood and you’re gonna be standing there and it’s just gonna run you over like nobody’s business.

So, for most of us, you know, I’m generally here and not speaking to the multibillionaires. We’re speaking to people who, in this day and age, might be comfortable, but decidedly middle class or recently moving out of the middle class into the ranks of the wealthy. But, you know, not the person with $100, $200, $300 million or more. So, for those folks, the people I’m speaking to, you need to anticipate these kinds of things because you don’t have the financial clout to fight them. So, you wanna kind of get brought along with the flow as opposed to being run over by it. Does that make sense, Clark?

Clark: I like that along with the flow. And when you’re talking about anticipating the next moves, and anticipating these kinds of things. There’s really three kinds of things when we’re talking about today, three different asset classes, right? Bond market, the stock market, and real estate. So, before we jump into that, I’m curious when you say the rates are being raised right now by the Feds, how do you explain that to maybe a child or just really simple terms what is really happening? What does that mean? And then let’s jump into those three asset classes.

Roger: Okay, great. That is a great question because most people do not understand what rates when they say on the news, the Federal Reserve raised rates today. They’re raising rates on something called the Fed funds rate. The Federal Reserve organization controls two interest rates, neither of which have much, if any, direct effect on your and my daily life. The first one is that Fed funds rate, the Fed funds rate is the rate at which a bank lends money to another bank overnight. See, at the end of the day, banks have to…it’s called book squaring, and they have to have a certain amount of cash on hand at the close of business and at the close of their books and report everything to the Federal Reserve. If the Fed doesn’t think your books are properly balanced or you don’t have enough cash on hand, that’s when things get dicey.

And then there’s another rate called the discount rate, and the discount rate is the rate at which a bank, a federally chartered bank specifically, can come to the Federal Reserve and borrow money. And there was a time in my career back in the ’80s, when nobody ever wanted to be seen going to the Fed to borrow money, it was considered a sign of weakness and other banks would stop doing business with you. I remember there was a bank called Continental Illinois, it was one of the biggest banks in the country. They got in trouble back in the ’80s with some bad loans in South America, and they were forced to borrow at the discount window. Now, within two years, three years, that bank was gone. You know, they tried to prop it up, it ended up being taken over and it was because its reputation was, you know, messed up.

Flash forward to 2008, and banks were lining up at the discount window to borrow money, the stigma is gone. And the super low rates of the last few years since 2008, you know, has allowed banks to go in and borrow heavily at incredibly low rates from the Federal Reserve under 1%, then turn around and deploy that money in other loans. So, if you’ve been wondering why you can’t get any kind of a yield on a savings account, or a short-term CD, it’s because of that. They’re getting cheaper money from the Fed. Well, that’s starting to dry up and you’re starting to see, you know, CD rates, and savings rates, I’m seeing specials 1%, 1.5%. I’ve even seen some CDs over 2%. They’re teaser rates, they’re not for very long time, but the fact is that things are starting to come back to the general public to raise capital. So, those are the two rates that the Federal Reserve controls and they tend to influence, that’s very important distinction. So, the treasury bond rates are set by the public, by the demand to buy and sell these securities. And so, you know, people look at the federal funds rate or the discount rate as benchmarks and they compare what they can earn elsewhere to those benchmarks. And banks tie some of their lending rates to those rates as well, but very, very few. Usually, they relate to something called the prime rate which is set by banks and each bank has its own prime rate, and again, they use the Federal Reserve rates as a reference point. And then in the broader mortgage market or treasury markets, it’s really supply and demand, and the competitive nature of those markets that sets the rates. But there is an influence based on what the Federal Reserve does.

Clark: Got it. Part of my curiosity is, and its simplest way to think about it comes down to the bank in being able to lend money to other banks, how do you boil it down to like the simplest…explain it to a child.

Roger: Banks have to support each other for the good of the system. And so, in a given day, bank A might lend out more money and bank B might take in more deposits. So, even though they’re separate, they’re part of the system. So bank B who took in more deposits lends money Bank A because they didn’t get those deposits and they lent out more money there by drawing down the amount of money bank A has.

Clark: And right. So, when the Feds, when they change that rate, that’s what’s gonna influence these other asset classes that we’re about to jump into. Is that right?

Roger: Well, yes, because the banks, if I gotta borrow money from…if I’m Bank A and I borrow from Bank B, my loan rates have to reflect the added expense of me borrowing from Bank B at a higher rate. Does that makes sense?

Clark: Right. That is when it will impact your consumers, your users, your customers.

Roger: For the most part, it also is supply and demand driven, so if, you know, there are alternatives that are offering similar characteristics but more favorable terms, then you’ll see rates move. Because what is an interest rate anyways? It’s just the price of money, right?

Clark: That’s the simple way to look at it. I’ve not thought of it. That’s something for interest rate of money.

Roger: Well, if you want…interest rates are the price of money.

Clark: Price of money. Interest rates are the price of money.

Roger: Just the price of money. Yep.

Clark: Well, that’s a great transition to our asset classes, and whichever one you wanna lead with, bond market, the stock market, or real estate, let’s talk about how that transfers into real life.

Roger: Okay. So, I wanna mention real quick, this is a little esoteric, but for some of our more detail-oriented listeners, the other thing that the Federal Reserve is doing right now is they’re right-sizing their balance sheet and without getting too deep into that, they’re selling off investments that they’ve purchased back in 2008 to stabilize the financial markets in the financial system. So, they bought a lot of stuff from the Treasury, they bought stocks they owned at General Motors at one time and things like that. So, they’ve been selling this stuff off, but they hadn’t really sold off the bonds. They’re selling off bonds now, so that will also increase supply which tends to raise the price of a bond interest rate. In other words, lowering the price of the bond raises the interest rate. That make sense?

Clark: Lowering the price of the bond raises the interest rate.

Roger: Right. The value of bonds travels opposite of the rate. So, if an interest rate goes up from five to six, the value of the bond will go down. Okay. See, they’re called fixed interest securities, right? You’ve heard that term before, haven’t you?

Clark: Right.

Roger: Okay. And all that means is our fixed income securities is also a very common name for this, for a bond. So, a bond if I’ve got $100,000 bond, and it’s got a 5% yield when it’s issued, that means it pays $5,000 a year, right?

Clark: Right.

Roger: So, it’s always gonna pay $5,000 a year. That is the thing that is fixed. But if I don’t wanna wait, say it’s a 10-year bond, and I don’t wanna wait 10 years, I need to get my cash back, so I go to sell and now interest rates are 10%, nobody’s gonna buy my 5% bond, right?

Clark: Yeah.

Roger: Not if you can go out and get 10% somewhere else, right?

Clark: Right.

Roger: But I’ll offer 50 cents on the dollar for that bond in other words, that bond still going to pay $5,000, I’ll pay you $50,000 for that bond. And that way I get my 10%. And if you’re desperate enough and you need the cash, you’re gonna sell it because that’s what the bond is worth. So, when interest rates ran up, the cost, the value of the bond went down. And the opposite is true. If interest rates went down to 2.5%, and you had a bond paying five, that $5,000, and I say, “Gee, I’d love to get that 5% bond.” That’s double the interest rate. You’d say, “Yeah, I bet you would.” But I’ll tell you what, you pay me double, you pay me $200,000. And then that $5,000 is 2.5% of that and that’s what you’re buying becomes worth, okay? So, that’s the brief explanation of how values change, but the income does not hence fixed income securities.

So, what does it mean for the bond market? Well, it means that existing bonds will become less valuable. The only time a bond is truly guaranteed is one day, that’s the day it’s matured. That’s the day you get your cash back. In between, if you need liquidity, you gotta find somebody to buy your bond. And so, with rising interest rates, the bonds I already own are not going to be attractive to an investor if I need to sell. So, they’re gonna ask me to give them a discount on my bond from what I paid for it so that their yield is equivalent to the market yield. Now, that sounds like it’s not that big a deal, right? Except most people don’t own bonds individually. So, if you own an individual bond and you hold it to maturity, you’ve got nothing to worry about, right? It’s guaranteed to pay off whatever amount regardless of what you paid for it. So, if I bought it at a discount, it’s gonna pay off a higher number because it’s the number printed on the bond.

So, in our previous example, if I paid $50,000 for that bond, but it was $100,000 bond. When it matures, I’m going to get $100,000. It doesn’t matter what I paid for the bond because that’s what the bond is worth at maturity. So, if you’re gonna hold them to maturity, you enjoy that guarantee. But most people own bonds today, unless you’re an institution, through mutual funds or ETFs, exchange traded funds. And the difference is you lose that guarantee in a bond fund. I’ve written about this a whole bunch of times because I don’t think people really understand it, including some advisors. I see portfolios being set up and I say, “Why do you have all these bonds?” And they say, “Well, I don’t want risk.” And we’ve talked before about nothing’s risky until it is, you know…

Clark: That when you’re Rogerisms.

Roger: Yeah, 1997 there was no risk in tech stocks they just went up. You could buy a sock puppet and make money because it has an eCommerce thing and people thought it was a tech stock. So, it’s the same kind of thing now, but when rising interest rates, if I own a mutual fund full of bonds, I have guaranteed myself a loss in value as rates increase. So, have we added that safety element that you were recommended to go into the bond fund? Did you get the safety you’re looking for? Odds are you didn’t because you will be losing money. Last year we saw people in bond funds lose as much as 15% in some bond funds because interest rates, you know, doubled. And Treasury rates, the 10-year went from 1.35 just before the election in 2016, to up to 2.8, 2.9 on the 10-year late last year and into this year. So, it really got over three there for a little while.

So, when you see that, that means that those bonds mutual funds are taking a beating. And depending on the type of bonds will determine the extent of those losses. Riskier bonds have other issues, things we call high yield or junk bonds, but the interest rate affects them just not as much. The stock market actually has more effect on junk bonds. So, if you own those kinds of assets you may wanna look into alternatives. If I own a bond fund because I wanna reduce the risk in my portfolio, but the bond fund is not going to provide support in a rising interest rate environment, then you wanna replace that. You still need to have the risk reduced in that situation and there are ways and assets that will do that. In fact, I have a recent white paper by a guy named Roger Ibbotson. You might have heard of him, you might not have, but he’s a Nobel Prize winning economist, that is a professor at Yale. And he also has a research group and he was anticipating a few years back that interest rates eventually would have to start going up and did this research paper. In fact, any of our listeners that want a copy, just go to our website and go to the Contact Us page and request a copy of the white paper, and I’m happy to send you an electronic copy. Just say, want the Ibbotson white paper.

Clark: Excellent.

Roger: So, that’s bonds. Positioning yourself so that you won’t get hurt by increasing rates in a bond, particularly a mutual fund, or ETF, or closed-end fund portfolio. You’re not gonna get the shelter from the storm that you were anticipating, at least not near term. Now, if the market crashes, all bets are off because people will still run to the bottom market because that’s how we’ve all been conditioned. Stocks are bad, run the bonds. The interest rates will likely drop during that time period, and thank goodness, they’ve come up so that they have somewhere to drop. I mean, that was one of the prescriptions to get us out of the recession in 2008, and we need to start stockpiling weapons because it’s coming again. And sure as I’m sitting here, I don’t know when, but we don’t have the same weapons, the financial weapons, financial strategies available that we used to have. Again, not for today’s discussion. So, you wanna move on to the next asset class?

Clark: Let’s do it.

Roger: All right. Well, let’s talk about real estate. Real estate has been pretty interesting. Just about all of my clients own real estate one way or the other. They either own a home, or they own investment properties, or they own REITs, or they own private placements, or fractional interest in buildings or the family owns a building. And it’s interesting real estate can be the greatest asset class or your worst nightmare. I bet you, if you interviewed a bunch of people who jumped into real estate in 2003, 2004, 2005, and they think it’s a nightmare because they got run over in 2008. Many people lost everything, very, very sad. But when you dissect what they did, it was how they purchased, how they financed, and how they maintained the financial side of those properties. Not every time, but most times, they heavily contributed to those losses. But when interest rates go up, it makes the cost of buying a property more expensive, very simple.

And if I can get risk-free yields in the bond market, say, I can get a treasury bond that pays me 5%, there isn’t one today, but if rates keep going up there might be one. Owning a building that’s only paying me 3% isn’t going to be nearly as attractive, and 3% to 4% around here are pretty common cap rates than the yield that’s on the value of residential investment, multifamily properties. So, you know, when you can get higher yields with less hassle, that will tend to reduce real estate pricing so that the yield on the real estate itself can now compete and an investor will get compensated for the additional risk. You know, if I buy a bond, I just sit there and collect my checks. If I buy a piece of real estate, I have to keep it painted, and I have to keep the tenants happy, and I have to fix the toilets, and I have to pay the taxes, and I have to review my insurance policy, and I have to put in clients, and at least go collect rents and on and on. So, you know, I should get compensated for all the extra work I have to do and the extra risk I’m taking on.

You know, U.S. Treasury bond, I just know that every 30 days money is gonna show up in my checking account. If I look at a piece of investment property, if my tenant gets laid off and stops paying, not only do I not get my interest, my income, but now I got to incur additional expenses to evict the tenant. So, little different, I believe, if you own real estate, you should get compensated for that. It’s a wonderful asset class, but it’s gonna take a little while for rents and valuations to reorganize themselves relative to the interest rates available. And it’s because of the economic evaluations. On the residential side, if you wanna go buy a home, your pool of buyers will shrink because less people will be able to qualify for a mortgage. Because the mortgage payments are higher on a more expensive, a higher interest rate involved loan.

Clark: So, in other words, if you’re gonna try to sell your house, if you keep waiting, your pool of buyers will shrink, is what you’re saying?

Roger: If rates continue to rise, absolutely.

Clark: And you’re saying, you feel confident they’re gonna continue rising. We’ve already seen the Feds raise the rates.

Roger: There might be a pause and that pause would be if the stock market crashed. A little correction is one thing, a crash is something entirely different. So, you know, if we were to go down 25%, 30%, 40%, you will see people running the bonds and you will see interest rates go back down. By the way, everything that I’m referring to is about change and how we perceive the value of different asset classes. And that changes with a change in interest rates. So, the thing to keep in the back of your mind is don’t fear this. People always are afraid of change. It’s human nature. We like things to stay the same, nice and comfy, you know, I like to get up at the same time every day, eat the same kinds of foods and, you know, there’s a lot of biological reasons we like to keep things the same, the body is happy and, you know, change is a little unnerving for many, many folks.

So, that’s why the panic sets in and that’s why markets get roiled. So, change can also modify risk, but when we have change and risk goes up, something else happens as well. Opportunities appear. So, if you can stay calm while all others around you are losing their mind, and you spend this time raising cash, taking profits from profitable investments and positioning yourself for what I can’t imagine not happening in the next two, three years, maybe sooner, which is a major correction in stocks and/or real estate, now people that are ready, people that have cash, these are folks that are gonna make out like bandits. We’ve talked previously about not always being in certain markets and the cash is king. And I think you’re gonna see that coming up here in the not too distant future for those who are patient and keep their wits about them.

So, we’ve been spending a lot of our time the last two years raising cash and creating efficient strategies for cash where you’re not stuck not making, you know, but a half a percent, but you’re making more like 3% to 5% while you’re waiting for those opportunities. So, you know, in the real estate market and what’s so critical here is people get emotional over single family homes. If I’m gonna move into a house, it’s not just an economic decision, it’s not just a financial decision, it is an emotional decision. And people make buying decisions emotionally. I love it. I hate it, you know. And then they work out the numbers later to make it work. I really, really want that house. I really want that house. How can we make that happen? I hear that kind of stuff all the time. In fact, I’ve had two different clients lose out on properties they really wanted that they were gonna maybe spend a little more than they were comfortable just in the last month.

And I’d like to think that me showing them how to make sure that they’re not hurting themselves with these purchases contributed to them not overbidding for some of these things. Because that’s where I see people getting into trouble. You overpay, you don’t get your financing right, and you don’t have the supporting investments and liquidity necessary to keep your home ownership safe. And we could devote a whole session to that, maybe we will. To just how to manage your house as an asset.

Clark: The final question I’ve got for you is the strategy that you’re talking about, anticipating a course direction that will impact these different asset classes. So, raising cash, what do you do with that cash while you’re waiting patiently?

Roger: Well, it really depends. Some people have places that they can stick cash that they don’t even know they can stick cash. So, I don’t like to get too strategy specific in these…

Clark: You’ve got options and it depends, is what you’re saying.

Roger: Yes, you know, it’s all I can tell you. There’s some pretty simple stuff.

Clark: Because everyone is different.

Roger: Yeah, everyone’s different, and markets, and availabilities change. Time horizons, if you wanna park your cash for just a couple of months, it’s one thing. Then yield isn’t so important, access is. If you’ve got maybe a year, two, three, time horizon for that cash, well, then access isn’t important and we can take advantage of the time horizon and get a better yield. So, like I said, it depends, but there are a variety of cash-based options available. But we didn’t talk, while we have a couple of minutes, we didn’t talk about the stock market and rising interest rates. Because stocks, you know, that’s a big concern for everybody. There’s a historical belief that stocks only go up when interest rates are low. But we can look at history to be our guide and see that stocks adjust. You know, everything is relative. if interest rates for borrowing go up, interest rates on savings goes up.

You know, back in 1980, when the rates got up to 18%, prime rates got into the teens. I bought a triple-A rated municipal bond from the Ukiah School Districts, rated triple-A, and got 14.5%. So, that was pretty cool, double tax free. The same year, some goofball totaled my car. My car was parked in a parking lot, and the guy went berserk in a parking lot, just started smashing cars and I had to buy a new car because I had to get to work and I didn’t have the money to pay cash, so I got a four-year car loan at 14%. I actually paid it off. I don’t think too many people will be flocking to the dealership today at 14%, yet the dealership I went to was pretty busy. So, it’s all relative, is what I’m trying to get at. There’ll be winners and losers that hence opportunities. So, certain industries that borrow a lot like the oil industry is very, very capital intensive, is what they call it. They got to buy a lot of equipment, the construction business.

And anything where you’re carrying a lot of tangible things, retailers that have to go to a factor in finance their inventory on the floor, or a reset a mortgage, it will squeeze margins and certain businesses will not be able to thrive in a higher interest rate environment. And other types of stocks, it’s not gonna bother them very much. You know, tech companies that are flush with cash, they’ll get to earn more cash on their cash. And they’ll just use that cash instead of borrowing. You know, you look at Apple over the last eight or nine years, and they’ve gone and borrowed billions of dollars, even though they had billions of dollars in cash, because they were borrowing at such incredibly low rates, it just made sense for them to keep that cash. They understand the importance of cash. And so, you know, it’s gonna change stock valuations. It always does, but it doesn’t mean we can’t have market rallies. In fact, if we go back to 1949, on February of 1949, the Dow Jones Industrial Average was all the way down at 174, and interest rates were in the twos. Flashforward in 1966, and interest rates were in the mid fours, so almost double.

And in April of 1966, we hit, for then, an all-time high of 995 on the Dow Jones Industrial Average. So, we went from 174 all the way up to 995. That’s a big, big, big move. That’s almost 500% increase in the value of the Dow Jones average in 17 years. That’s kind of comparable to these days. Of course, that was the post-war boom, and there was a lot of demand for capital and that was driving up those interest rates. So, it’s not, you know, gee, we can’t make money in stocks. It means that short-term, there might be a lot of blood in stocks as this continues, and so far it’s been nice and orderly. We haven’t had any panic increases or stuff by the Federal Reserve. So, you know, it’s kind of like a slow-moving storm, it leaves a lot of rain, but it gives you time and you see it on the horizon to take cover and, you know, batten down the hatches as it were.

So, you can wait like most people will and they will procrastinate, sit on their hands, do nothing and then act surprised when all hell breaks loose, or you can start incrementally preparing for what is, I believe, inevitable. The market has always gone up and down, we have not suspended the laws of physics. Gravity still sucks. You know, things go down a lot faster than they go up. This is one of the reasons that bear markets don’t last as long as bull markets. You know, we can knock 60% of the value off of stocks in a mere 18 to 24 months to rebuild that to double the stock market can take years. So, that’s, you know, I think of it like buildings, you know, takes years to build a building and it takes seconds to knock that thing down. You’ve watched them implode a building, haven’t you?

Clark: Oh, yeah, definitely. That’s a good analogy.

Roger: Everything works that way. Gravity pulls you down and so, it always takes longer. It’s always harder to build than it is to lose. We read stories about people, spent their life building wealth and then they got scammed out of it. Nothing flat. And I know that’s horrible. But it’s is a fact of life. That’s why we do this, Clark. We’re doing this to hopefully get people to think and take actions to prevent those kinds of tragedies. And they’re tragedies, they’re personal tragedies. It’s not, you know, a national tragedy if you lose your stock portfolio, or if your house loses half of its value, but it is a personal tragedy, and that’s really where the rubber meets the road.

Clark: Well, now you’re just saying a few moments ago, is all of this is dependent on your individual situation and something we always want to make sure to mention, a free resource. I know you’ve already given away one resource on this, but you’ve got the thought organizer. So, real quick, what is the thought organizer and how is that a resource one can activate today?

Roger: Well, today you can go to our website at and at the bottom of the first page, the homepage, is a little pop-up that you can download your own copy of the thought organizer today. It is a tool that we’ve refined over the years and continue to, in fact, thinking about ways to make it…we’re always thinking about ways to make it better. It’s simply designed for you to get in touch with who you are, what you wanna accomplish, and what are your priorities. And what are the things that keep you up at night? Because your plan should avoid those kinds of things. So, it’s designed for you to know what’s the point of going through the hassles of wealth building. And it’s also to make sure that help you identify strategies and assets that you’re comfortable with, or that you and your spouse are comfortable with.

And finally, if you’re married or have a significant other, I urge you to fill those out separately in different rooms, don’t peek and then get back together and compare the answers. When I start with a married couple, that’s the entire first meeting, is we go over each of their thought organizers and we reconcile it, so that they have a unified vision of what they’re trying to accomplish. It’s never ever too soon to take that step and figure out what it’s all about.

Clark: Good stuff. Roger, as always thanks so much for sharing, giving us some great stories and examples. I think we were saying earlier that it was the Gainerisms, all the different examples, I always love your analogies. So, until next time, I’m looking forward to one of our future chats.

Roger: Excellent. All right, Clark, thanks again. And we’ll talk soon.

Clark: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of “Retire Happy.” Be sure to head on over to, download your thought organizer to get started. Roger L. Gainer, ChFC, California insurance license number 0754849 is licensed to sell insurance and annuity products in California, Illinois, Arizona, Pennsylvania, and New York. Roger L. Gainer is an investment advisor representative providing advisory services through HFIS, Inc., a registered investment advisor. Gainer Financial and Insurance Services, Inc. is not owned or affiliated with HFIS, Inc. and operates independently. Thanks again so much and we’ll see you next time.